Curse

DreamWind · Jun 20, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You didn't get my point so I'll make it explicit: Regina clearly said that devs are listening to some players, well then you should be one of them.

Not necessarily. From my experiences, there has always been a general feeling of disconnect between Anet's CR and the PvP community in particular (yes Gaile Gray was a huge part of that). Anet has a history of saying "we are listening" and then either not acting on what they hear or not explaining why they didn't act on what they heard.

manitoba1073 · Jun 20, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Yes, yes it is. The sole fact that you can use a zealous weapon to fuel it without drawbacks, because your energy regeneration is set to -2, already breaks the intended balance.
About it being strong in numbers, it's exactly the same as Soul Reaping -- and the latter was heavily nerfed.

Oh really. Wanna put that to the test. Ill show you lvl 12,13 and lvl 14 that would chew the hell out of a ursan in a heartbeat. Without healing Ursan dies period. It takes a team to make it overpowered. On its own its where it should a slightly more powerful skill than an elite. That replaces your full skill with 4 set attack skills. Which is why I suggested long ago that it be limited to just 2 or 3 in a group which is the break line for Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I think we all have to agree the number will be even lower due to people leaving the game, and accounts being inactive. Then again, some people only buy one chapter so that could raise the number. I doubt ANet would release exact details of active (used within, say, 1 week) accounts, but it would be interesting to see.

I agree (except for maybe the topping WoW part). However, if overpowered skills had not been added and flaws in game design hadn't created areas like DoA, or resulted in class bias, players would have more, equally viable options. You shouldn't have to use to a certain skill to complete any area.

And yes, having health boost, armor boost, condition and armor-ignoring attacks is rather overpowered. So are a lot of the other PvE skills. While Ursan might only get extremely powerful in numbers, on a straight level of comparison it is pretty ridiculous for how completely simple it is.

Yeap the number is lower at roughly just 600k units of gwen sold we can add a fair guess of around another 100k or so that doesnt have it. That doesnt include mulltiple account holders though.

The overpowered skills were added because of not having the seperation of skills. However the really only place you need a certain skill to complete is Urgoz Warren and the Deep(I believe havent been bothered to do the Deep yet). No other area really requires a certain skill only the players mostly require it. Once again brings us back to it being a player issue. I mean come on Avarre you a big Mesmer nut job should know its the players not the skills that truelly decide it.

Im not getting into the discussion about CR and that.

Now the problem is that its just to easy to play? Really why does it matter if its easy to play for people, it shouldnt. If they want to play that way let them. That is there choice to play that way and not your choice to force them to play another way. It would be nice if they didnt take the easy way out. I get sick and tired of holding hands too.

Why do you think I gave Anet the entire idea for the dying nightmares. Mostly as a wakeup call to add skill back into doing UW. Didnt QQ how easy it was to do it, I didnt QQ whether people where using my 55 build so much. The only thing I cared about is if they truelly were having fun and to teach them player skills to use it. Which it did. lol notice all the whining about it when it went live. Though they did change them awhile later by buffing them. Which I dont agree with.

There are better ways than taking away from people to show them.

Tyla · Jun 20, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Oh really. Wanna put that to the test. Ill show you lvl 12,13 and lvl 14 that would chew the hell out of a ursan in a heartbeat. Without healing Ursan dies period. It takes a team to make it overpowered. On its own its where it should a slightly more powerful skill than an elite. That replaces your full skill with 4 set attack skills. Which is why I suggested long ago that it be limited to just 2 or 3 in a group which is the break line for Ursan.

So, just because Ursan doesn't have heals it's not overpowered?

Alright, add something that has the ability to heal and presto, not a full team but 2 members.

Ursan has everything you need, except for a heal, and if you think it's a team that makes it overpowered, you might as well say every build in the game is overpowered.

Quote:

The overpowered skills were added because of not having the seperation of skills. However the really only place you need a certain skill to complete is Urgoz Warren and the Deep(I believe havent been bothered to do the Deep yet). No other area really requires a certain skill only the players mostly require it. Once again brings us back to it being a player issue. I mean come on Avarre you a big Mesmer nut job should know its the players not the skills that truelly decide it.

It's the player skill, the skills used and the equipment of the player. Not only player skill.

Avarre · Jun 20, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

The overpowered skills were added because of not having the seperation of skills. However the really only place you need a certain skill to complete is Urgoz Warren and the Deep(I believe havent been bothered to do the Deep yet). No other area really requires a certain skill only the players mostly require it. Once again brings us back to it being a player issue. I mean come on Avarre you a big Mesmer nut job should know its the players not the skills that truelly decide it.

I was referring less to a physical requirement and more to that these skills give such an absurd advantage. It's not really arguable how much of an advantage PvE skills give to a group doing DoA (or any elite area), and a group without them is going to be relatively handicapped. That pushes a lot of players into having to run only builds using those skills.

JaiGaia · Jun 20, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

/signed

I havent been active on here in a minute, though i do still log into gw from time to time, but today i got to reading this post and i was actually quite surprised at how much he hit so much on the head and felt yea ill sign in hopes they take alot of what he said into consideration. The more i began to see so many different aspects of the game start to falter from both pve and pvp the more it turned me away from it. I was one of those players who was gonna jump to FURY , for the pvp side of gaming cos its potential was so great and tbh i still havent found anything quite like its pvp since, though a failed project. I say this for them to keep in mind just How Hardcore of an audience they had attracted to their game something they admit they didnt realize was going to happen from both ends of pve and pvp as they believed that each campaign would only keep ppl for short amounts of time til the new one came out. And that those ppl looking back are going to be very critical of how u handle gw2.

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Firstly, as already mentioned, you wreck the confidence of your playerbase. Not only did you drive a great number away with ridiculous changes, but you encourage them to not come back. Look at Fury – a game that only existed before it was actually released, and how it drew a lot of the Guild Wars scene to it. It provided what you stopped providing, and offered the hope that maybe this time, it will be a game that rewards its players. Even though Fury was buggy, had brutal system requirements, and never even survived release, it attracted players, and a lot of notable ones at that. All this means your profit for Guild Wars 2 is going to take a hit

.

I also fear that GW 2 wont reset a new par in gaming and have such the unique feel that GW has had. Infact its almost thier responsibility too do so imo, in todays age theres too many games that have subpar releases and unfinished products i just hope it doesnt fall victim to the same throat needle and rerepresents what set GW franchise to its success in the first place.

Akaraxle · Jun 20, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Oh really. Wanna put that to the test. Ill show you lvl 12,13 and lvl 14 that would chew the hell out of a ursan in a heartbeat. Without healing Ursan dies period. It takes a team to make it overpowered. On its own its where it should a slightly more powerful skill than an elite. That replaces your full skill with 4 set attack skills. Which is why I suggested long ago that it be limited to just 2 or 3 in a group which is the break line for Ursan.

Unsurprisingly you didn't get the Soul Reaping analogy, probably because you have little clue about how this game worked.

Explanation: Soul Reaping nets you energy every time a creature dies, and used to do so for pets and spirits too.
Take one necro, give it some hexes or spike skills: even if he gets energy feeded off, stuff doesn't die that often and a guy can easily power through him even if he has heals.
Take 8 necros, give them the same stuff: EVERYONE gets energy each time some random spirit poofs, and since more necros will be pooping spirits even more energy will get feeded to the whole team. Those necros possessed an insane energy machine and could easily focus damage to spike people, or nullify any damage they took because their energy was virtually neverending. Chain reaction.

Want another example? The old Searing Flames: underwhelming when used by a single ele, overpowering when in 2-3 copies. One is crap, multiple is insane: this is the very definition of a broken mechanic.

P.S. The fact that Ursan requires healing is a dumb argument: monsters aren't going to go on monks, who can easily spam their heals undisturbed. The presence of monks doesn't make the skill any less overpowered, but rather it slows down the buttonmashing because you can't run 8 ursans.

Crom The Pale · Jun 20, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Yes UB is very strong, that can not be argued about..

However is a team with 1 Ursan and 7 professions that use ballanced builds more or less "unbalanced" than a team with 7 balanced professions and 1 war/par running [for great justice][dragon slash][save yourselves]

?

All of the PvE skills are powerfull, more so than any regular skill ( save for a few that are too weak to see any use ), and they were created this way for the simple means of allowing players a symbolic means of leveling beyond 20.

They had very few options open to allow characters to grow beyond level 20, this was what they felt worked best. Personally I would have gone with PvE skills that were 2 normal skills combined, ie a compressed skill bar, however the selection of what skills to combine would need to be looked at very carefully.

For example(and this is just off the top of my head)

Save Yourselves = 8adren - For 1-8 seconds your other party members gain 24 armor and 33% movement. (watch yourself + charge)

I am certain there are better, more ballanced combos out there but this is just an example.

the_jos · Jun 20, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It's not really arguable how much of an advantage PvE skills give to a group doing DoA (or any elite area), and a group without them is going to be relatively handicapped. That pushes a lot of players into having to run only builds using those skills.

Avarre,

While I won't argue about the advantage of certain PvE skills in elite areas your statement covers only part.
I could say the same about the old PUG team builds that were used in those areas.
A PUG not running Kaiz's build in DoA would be relatively handicapped.
A PUG not running Steel Wall in Deep would be relatively handicapped.
It pushed people into having to run only builds using specific skills and professions.

Having the right skills and professions for those builds gave the players an absurd advantage over others who didn't have them.
Welcome to the wonderful world of PUG teams.

I know some PvE skills are too powerfull.
But the same can be said about a lot of other skills or skill combinations.
I've been testing with hero Discord teams recently and those are deadly when used right. No PvE skills needed. I never felt any urge to use PvE skills on my necro. Not only because of Discord, but also because of skills like SS.
My monk mainly plays hybrid builds and SoL just does not fit in at least 80% of them.
My mesmer does use CoP a lot but that's because single target shutdown isn't really vital and CoP combines good with the discord spikes.
I have not played my other professions enough to say something about those.

I think it's important to distinguish between the PUG player and the skilled player.
For the PUG player a skill or profession with a specific build is something that enables him to join a certain team.
The more overpowered the better from the perspective of the PUG player.

For a skilled player a skill is a tool.
If it's overpowered the skilled player will abuse that, but he knows why it works and how to replace it if the skill is changed. Or the limits of a certain skill.

For me there is no difference between a numberpressing SF ele or SS necro in DoA or a numbersmashing Ursan in DoA. Not even to mention the 1HP BiP that was used there....
It's all a 'build' that unskilled players can run and use to success to finish an area. Many won't learn more then stand here, do this, don't do that.
No thinking about why a certain build works (how many elementalists would consider the KD's of Meteor Shower part of the strategy to keep a tank alive?), they only know that it works...

I think something is wrong when the 'top PvE guilds' would only be running certain skills to do things faster and faster.
I think Agro used CoP spikers for their record time in Deep but doubt they used those anywere else.
They don't use UB for fast times in UW and FoW as far as I recall.
While not in one of the 'top PvE guilds' I know we as guild have done most vanquishes in balanced teams and I doubt it would be much faster with UB.
The thing that would have speed it up would have been the time spend on setting the team build.
But after entering the advantage would not be as high.

The only area where UB is probably the best skill for all teams will be DoA.
But that probably tells more about the imbalance of that area then the inbalance of that skill.

manitoba1073 · Jun 20, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Unsurprisingly you didn't get the Soul Reaping analogy, probably because you have little clue about how this game worked.

Explanation: Soul Reaping nets you energy every time a creature dies, and used to do so for pets and spirits too.
Take one necro, give it some hexes or spike skills: even if he gets energy feeded off, stuff doesn't die that often and a guy can easily power through him even if he has heals.
Take 8 necros, give them the same stuff: EVERYONE gets energy each time some random spirit poofs, and since more necros will be pooping spirits even more energy will get feeded to the whole team. Those necros possessed an insane energy machine and could easily focus damage to spike people, or nullify any damage they took because their energy was virtually neverending. Chain reaction.

Want another example? The old Searing Flames: underwhelming when used by a single ele, overpowering when in 2-3 copies. One is crap, multiple is insane: this is the very definition of a broken mechanic.

P.S. The fact that Ursan requires healing is a dumb argument: monsters aren't going to go on monks, who can easily spam their heals undisturbed. The presence of monks doesn't make the skill any less overpowered, but rather it slows down the buttonmashing because you can't run 8 ursans.

I know exactly how it worked. Soul reaping was in effect expontial to the points. Ursan is not.

So you saying ursan requiring healing is a dumb arguement. Come on then those lvl 12,13, and lvl 14 creatures want to say high. My IGN is under my name. And we can post your results here for all to see.

WingsOfDarkness · Jun 20, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Yeah...I really like the game as it is, I have played for just short of 2 years now.All that time on nothing really, for money.I have bought dvd's and imported cd's from overseas that cost far more, sucked and i never listened to/watched again.So, I am satisfied in that I got an unbelievable amount of entertainment, for nothing really.I appreciate the way Anet does everything with a few exceptions.

I hate grinding.I hate anything that feels like a grind.I don't have all kinds of hours in the day to play a game, I have a life, work, family, etc. So I prefer to sit and get things accomplished inside an hour or two at most.I didn't care for Prophecies, because instead of being "challenging" it just felt long.It took a LONG time to get anywhere, it wasn't hard, it just went on and on and on.I loved Factions and Nightfall, because things moved at more a pace I need them to.Everyone likes different paces and things.But I think most agree that grinds turn it into games that will remain unmentioned, and we got into GW to avoid crap like those games put on you.But I hated what Nightfall brought, and what EotN brought in these stupid ranking systems.You can't get in a group because a bunch of noobs want you to be the uber high rank in ursan or LB or wtf ever.It's really, really killing the fun and the game because its a multiplayer game, and you have to either play alone with heroes, or...grind for WEEKS or even months depending on how much time you can devote, to even get into a friggin group!Things like that need done away with, nerfed MAJORLY, and not brought back.

What made the game fun and unique was the fact that anyone, with any schedule, elite gamer or gaming noob, can pick up the game, play it, and have just as much chance as anyone.I would hate to see it turn into a crazy time sink like Wow, where success depends soley on how much time you spend sitting at your desk staring at a video game.

The ranks like Ursan and LB really are my only gripes about the game, and I hope such things won't be put anywhere near GW2, for Gw's sake.The entire mood of the game when I get on, (not mine, but people in a given town or outpost) has changed drastically from what it was when I picked it up 2 years ago.It went from fun and receptive people, to "Got the highest Ursan/LB/whatever rank?No?Ok go to hell and stfu!"...Ridiculous...

manitoba1073 · Jun 20, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsOfDarkness

Yeah...I really like the game as it is, I have played for just short of 2 years now.All that time on nothing really, for money.I have bought dvd's and imported cd's from overseas that cost far more, sucked and i never listened to/watched again.So, I am satisfied in that I got an unbelievable amount of entertainment, for nothing really.I appreciate the way Anet does everything with a few exceptions.

I hate grinding.I hate anything that feels like a grind.I don't have all kinds of hours in the day to play a game, I have a life, work, family, etc. So I prefer to sit and get things accomplished inside an hour or two at most.I didn't care for Prophecies, because instead of being "challenging" it just felt long.It took a LONG time to get anywhere, it wasn't hard, it just went on and on and on.I loved Factions and Nightfall, because things moved at more a pace I need them to.Everyone likes different paces and things.But I think most agree that grinds turn it into games that will remain unmentioned, and we got into GW to avoid crap like those games put on you.But I hated what Nightfall brought, and what EotN brought in these stupid ranking systems.You can't get in a group because a bunch of noobs want you to be the uber high rank in ursan or LB or wtf ever.It's really, really killing the fun and the game because its a multiplayer game, and you have to either play alone with heroes, or...grind for WEEKS or even months depending on how much time you can devote, to even get into a friggin group!Things like that need done away with, nerfed MAJORLY, and not brought back.

What made the game fun and unique was the fact that anyone, with any schedule, elite gamer or gaming noob, can pick up the game, play it, and have just as much chance as anyone.I would hate to see it turn into a crazy time sink like Wow, where success depends soley on how much time you spend sitting at your desk staring at a video game.

The ranks like Ursan and LB really are my only gripes about the game, and I hope such things won't be put anywhere near GW2, for Gw's sake.The entire mood of the game when I get on, (not mine, but people in a given town or outpost) has changed drastically from what it was when I picked it up 2 years ago.It went from fun and receptive people, to "Got the highest Ursan/LB/whatever rank?No?Ok go to hell and stfu!"...Ridiculous...

And yet its not the fault of the skill or actual title. Its the players fault for demanding it. Not all players demand rank/and that. I dont.

WingsOfDarkness · Jun 20, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Sure, some players are good.It is just frustrating to see so much of the bad.It feels like the introduction of such things as ridiculous ranking systems, are the start of the slide down the WoW or other game, path.Introduce whatever skill they want, make it as overpowered or underpowered as they want, but making its power based on a FARM rank, is ridiculous.I guess they can't base it on attributes as every class is different...But base it on level or give it some kind of cap where the AVERAGE player would be in said rank, at the end of a normal completion of the game.And I hate to see a once friendly and open community, upon recieving such skills, turn into a cold and unwelcoming group.I feel bad for the new players that see these people and these skills, and think wow...Why did I start this...They are just like when I played __________...When it used to be WOW!!I love this game there is something special and unique about it, and the community!

Master Knightfall · Jun 20, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Not necessarily. From my experiences, there has always been a general feeling of disconnect between Anet's CR and the PvP community in particular (yes Gaile Gray was a huge part of that). Anet has a history of saying "we are listening" and then either not acting on what they hear or not explaining why they didn't act on what they heard.

Where in the EULA does it say they HAVE to EXPLAIN anything or whether they take action or not? All she has to say is they are listening. Hell I listen to unemployed people all day long, doesn't mean they are going to get a job.

Quote:

but making its power based on a FARM rank, is ridiculous.

I totally disagree. Farm rank and overpowered skills are important for that aspect of PVE..I likes it.

WingsOfDarkness · Jun 20, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

To each their own

I just far prefer being in a multiplayer game, than a single player

kostolomac · Jun 20, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

If I had to choose to farm for around 10 hours to max norn , or delete my character with whom i spent 300+ hours of play who isn't favored by ANET , I would choose the first option. The argument that you lose your profession is invalid , you only lose your bar , but in most cases of balanced PUG groups you only run one different bar for each profession.

DreamWind · Jun 21, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

And yet its not the fault of the skill or actual title. Its the players fault for demanding it. Not all players demand rank/and that. I dont.

Finally you admit that having the choice is a problem. The players shouldn't even have the choice to be involved in things that are destructive to the game. Those options shouldn't even exist....its mere existence is destructive to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Where in the EULA does it say they HAVE to EXPLAIN anything or whether they take action or not? All she has to say is they are listening. Hell I listen to unemployed people all day long, doesn't mean they are going to get a job.

They have been saying "we are listening" for years with no result. How long are we supposed to sit and listen to "we are listening" without making jokes about it?

Div · Jun 21, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

So, just because Ursan doesn't have heals it's not overpowered?

Alright, add something that has the ability to heal and presto, not a full team but 2 members.

Ursan has everything you need, except for a heal, and if you think it's a team that makes it overpowered, you might as well say every build in the game is overpowered.

It's the player skill, the skills used and the equipment of the player. Not only player skill.

I have r6 koabd. I say tyla is right and the other guy is wrong. Do I win a prize for the most convincing argument?

manitoba1073 · Jun 21, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Finally you admit that having the choice is a problem. The players shouldn't even have the choice to be involved in things that are destructive to the game. Those options shouldn't even exist....its mere existence is destructive to the game.

You didnt even read it did you. Nope. Go and actually read what I wrote.
Having the choice is a good thing. Just because you want to force players to play your way isnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I have r6 koabd. I say tyla is right and the other guy is wrong. Do I win a prize for the most convincing argument?

So I'll prove you wrong again. You can find my IGN next to my name. You'd win a prize but not for most convincing arguement.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Having the choice is a good thing. Just because you want to force players to play your way isnt.

Say that to PuGs. There is no choice with them, it's either R10 Norn & Ursan or gtfo. It also isn't because we want to "Force" players to play our way. It's because the game wasn't made for pre-made skill bars and skills that rely on grind to be effective and require no attribution.

Quote:

So I'll prove you wrong again. You can find my IGN next to my name. You'd win a prize but not for most convincing arguement.

Let me ask you this. If there was no healing, how would you be able to do anything in the game? Farming excluded.

samifly · Jun 21, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

stuff

People having to use certian builds and skills in areas like the Deep and DoA are poor design flaws. Not the fault of players. People dont want to spend 5 hours getting to Kanexai.

Fow/UW/SF > Deep/Urgoz > DoA - see which ones required specific team builds? This is one aspect we are complaining about, the design has gone downhill.